z00m call with filmmaker Saqib Malik about seeking otherized narratives in lollywood cinema and his quest to show them in his own works.
SAQIB_FULL_EPI
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
film, people, character, pakistan, cinema, movies, stories, class, called, world, big, women, karachi, exploitation, key, happening, vcr, song, joe, video
00:00
I recently talked to socket Malik. He is a filmmaker who has been making videos in Pakistan since the 90s. The body
00:12
has also done commercials, and his film came out last year.
00:20
One of the main reasons for this call was for him to talk about this video that he did in 2018. For me, and for a lot of kids who grew up in the 90s censorship, which spilled over from Zayas dictatorship in the 80s. In 2000, when we had, yet another dictator was supposed to be liberal, we're seeing things that are really different.
01:01
And for me,
01:03
frankly, a culture shock.
01:08
This video validated not only me, but the world around me. And
01:23
now can you hear me?
01:24
Yes.
01:49
up it was a very free place, it was a very crowded place you could like all over the place, it was a very outdoorsy place, because really sauerberg kind of happened. I mean, before it was created, it was a bunch of villages. And then the capital was Karachi. And then they decided to make a slob by the capital. And so land was bought by the government. People started moving in in the 60s, and my parents were amongst the first you know, 100 200 families that moved in. My father was a doctor. My family moved in in 1965. In pin D, and then when they set Islamorada, it was a new city and to what I grew up, it's not about was small, closed, a lot of bureaucrats in our government servants. There was very little private enterprise, tiny population one movie theater, one big market one and j six, or the one in e6 called melody. And it was very exciting, because it was just a window into another word pindy. Meanwhile, which is like the connecting city to izawa, was bustling in a much older city in that a lot of nights. But it was still at two bookshops. You know, like I said to marketplaces, a movie theater, parents trusted you out, it could be with the neighbors, you would pay for the
03:32
upkeep, early memory care.
03:35
Daily memory. You know, I can't remember. I mean, it's a he told me about a long time ago. My earliest memories are really grouchy. Because my grandmother used to live in Karachi. And for me, Karachi, which is fantastic. Think freeing, amazing city with such a sensory overload, and so much to do. It was a very colorful, exciting city, full of opportunities, even as a kid. So I really loved it. So my earliest memories are really of Karachi. And then, you know, my parents were, my father got a fellowship with a doctor, back in 1969, to go to Denmark to do a specialization. So my parents left me with my grandparents, so I spent a year in Karachi with them to you know, like my earliest memories, I guess, at that time when you're three and four. So I remember karate is a space where I was really pampered being indulged with very, very well. And then it's now about always associate with the coldness and
04:45
kind of seclusion Punjab
04:59
would always come
05:01
Once it paid its mean cinemas in 2010. Like, after its run there, it would come to sama. So maybe like after, you know, film was a success, and it ran for 15 weeks and pindy then it would come here maybe like much later. And we would have very few English films because it was such a small audience, right? So we would have these special weeks, and we would have an English film week. So they would have one English movie or day or we would have foreign film week second Polish week. So I had two three o'clock show the imagination. It's your polish. So it was like that. But it was very, very limited. But I saw a bunch of movies
05:46
show censored hoti De Jong racp legato Valera was up which goes
05:53
back in the 70s when during Bhutto's type censorship, obviously totally relaxing, but then comes out and censorship got really strict. But then you'd have like a truly you'd have the special Finn weeks like the Russians and we for the Polish week, and they weren't censored, but I remember watching this and it was really risky. I remember watching the simple McKenna's code. He has a really famous question with Omar Sharif and I remember seeing Planet of the Apes and the portent kind of nude scenes. Planet of the Apes at this nude scene with Charlton Heston and the new justice back. I mean like kissing and everything going on back in the 70s in the 80s it got really strict it was thrilling to see every to see sex on a big screen or physical contact on a big screen.
06:47
And that too at that age and like up go up cage will be under Kenya was kushite good story see validation memory whoa bar kitchen yonko de cabeza de hamara sanitized environmental Jammeh, but all the kind of women estienne Pilla gotta tell me, Ratko agar aapko yado TNT Valera, people no rock, metal spoon can live with censorship or the TiVo pixelate oh my god
07:12
Rocco pixelate. estienne was amazing because it was such a revolution. Because PTP, after the zR z is and well into, like the early years of Benghazi, so from 7978 79, till around 1989 90, things were pretty strict. And then when SDN came in, you had an option and suddenly the use of a lot of Pakistani movies we associate with the cottage or college and send you to the jump down says Oh, today
07:49
it could be the dino then eat pitch on TT bow ski. Barbara Leakey de Marchi, Phil Mayo cyber Rambo key.
07:58
It was amazing, but
08:01
Vizier without in a minute or
08:04
so the VCR was like we could come up me. Underneath the Mumbai shot VCR PB dictate of a VCR as
08:14
a minister of SDN they can do this and they do not know automatically. On a pasta VCR we'll look at Bollywood
08:27
uncensored Indian movies english movies, x rated movies metacoda show Katamari moil Ma Ma limitary market may it was I mean, the whole video shop culture used to be huge right? Something ugly Ott, English movie Ott PaRappa, Clara piccata, who's KPJ sorry, x rated movies like utility, or rosewood soft core beauty the Shrew soft core movies Walker city was getting pretty hardcore again for hardcore, trying to bring joy, joy culture rototom created quite a revolution. I think in the way people grew up the technique and experimentation became much better to hold on on the car.
09:31
70s when you were watching movies melody may stop today's social dramas but image shows that do okay. Or Mooji like tap Coco Sandy tafisa taka ballyhoura to Sankey film era to La Paz Fillmore says other Corinne feel current there,
09:50
you know 17th matches and maybe even TT Punjab even mentioned for motiti but there are the standard was social dramas Maybe no two and you give someone a VCR to tanning for Zara digital to keep it at the cinema john a Burberry activity or her after do thin film TV or sodomy, Salma saw, so those of you may look at. So it used to be a huge thing
10:23
when it's all my first film in a cinema, just the kind of freedom of going into this dark theater and just a fascination with that big screen and larger than life images. And because somehow that was the other world and identified with others, very early in the year at that age because I didn't quite fit in into the normal you know, everyday world. So I kind of identified with what was on the edge of what was different
11:13
at Zoo TT, you know, that was bent, a little risque. And obviously, away from what was considered the norm that really excited me.
11:26
It was a monumental film, maybe coffee. I just made coffee coffee coffee table kategorya. Toby, what
11:33
was your monimoto? I of course, I mean, um, it wasn't as crass as it became in like the late 90s and early 2000s. Like it just became so I mean, if you look at the films of the last 10 years ago that Nollywood was producing 15 years ago. It was just send us and just for the sake of it, but social dramas of the 70s and 80s it was done with quite a bit of ingenuity. It was brought in to was kind of sexy and to slightly veiled but there was a context to it.
12:21
infill mocha technically, gelato coffee, Jacqui Gentry went to RTT appear. Labor class dokay Pandora Sol alakija Phil melbournian Joe Joe Mosley owner wanted a key and awesome anemic code. Castillo got addicted.
12:36
Red Robin 66 right. So like when I started seeing movies in the early 70s so obviously it was very different Gentry right? That it's a time when your middle classes and your families used to go to cinemas everybody used to go to the cinema. My parents used to go to the cinema you know Ratko naukrijunction shoulder mochila jacket and women used to go to the cinema alone and you had in every neighborhood every locality and then going to the cinema became a working class thing in the mid to late 80s that started so then it became a thing Jim zaditor Maria today which our team we are at or DVR but it was primarily an urban working class thing. So then cinema going really change and then we'll say if income is a movie whatsoever men
13:53
and men
13:58
stories effect we k stories b 80s and 90s to be Punjabi mostly just gone record worker it was Meiji a bondage a working class Bandai who has been wronged by the God of the village right boskie laugh cloud or or Justice Scalia jokey coffees UI top shade balls the arcade with me instantly feeling you're gonna get justice a rise of capitalism or semi aka decaffeinated coffee and methods or marry the man.
14:36
Well, could. You see the thing is that that's what I say. I mean Nollywood for our own. Commercial cinema can't just immediately be written off. And a lot of today's filmmakers who never grew up on a generally ceremony they came automatically right lollywood off, but those things were popular when people they were popular with people for a reason. Because of that. Because the teams that they addressed at some level were 11 to
15:15
17 entities who basically will be suited for a limited scenario or funky audience fidgety Punjabi funky Agra share maybe Bossa relocato bossa nova Chairman at a rural areas and then there was a big rural circuit or a circuit in smaller cities so films dealt with that dealt with urban audiences engage issues differently with women with social issues with bushwa issues. To my mother
16:21
a Chica Muchas
16:29
gracias
16:42
to do social drama
16:46
with the kotico handle Western with some puts just giggle relic edge on everybody enjoys club dance ennemi Zazu
16:54
says automation in the Moto cinema kitabi Hollywood keep you up Indian film be the ugly there is still very specific Sean's and rights and moral kind of especially for commercials in cinema right? If you look at your superhero films, I mean they're very very the line that particularly drawn out but your characters in Maya cariari bar that became more with Sean. So when cinema going became very big in the urban areas in the 90s late 80s and Shawn is to town a Bobby Joe urban issues you know urban but Marsh semi Akari exploitation police exploitation or vocal film a Punjabi since moved from the village also Tamra into the city. So the early Sean era starting from the mid 90s to about 2005 that cinema was primarily in the cities of the Goodyear film so very city oriented sense.
18:06
What are you
18:07
even Amane maybe
18:11
obviously the outcome but it can lead to censorship. But recently but anyway discussions phenomena HIV to me, there will be bored or take away Jemaine issue at home key simple Joe Gatto Santi moto moto is a musician with Joe onko carrier think of a bunker or parable Agha transfer kiya Zacchaeus to be clicking on a beautiful script by Amanda yamaga Georgina Chani to passport donkey already photo book is on a Monday. Auggie bofill made your descent turkey
18:52
thank God
18:55
could be funny.
19:09
But Chica bonito
19:23
Islamization started during very much during Bhutto's time to locate the far right which is pressure pressure and not so good to be tighter for example, questions of like, you know, things like sex or nudity or kissing and this was that wasn't much of an issue for photo photo. However, if things were talked about religion, and or things talked about the Army or things you know, Very, very critical of state institutions, what the Buddha taught Mecca
20:06
was made by NASA acted on it. It was a government
20:11
National Film Development Corporation. And of course, that had a lot because it was a serious film. German dad had a lot of, I think anti military innuendos. Yeah, it got nastic into a lot of trouble.
20:34
Now I do teach him about it. Hey, brother hussaini towers of silence. I think that never got released. And I'm not sure if that was Jimmy. They've you know, then
20:44
Jimmy Valmiki fell to john key Columbia, South Park NFL safety system. I didn't know kidnap tech news co financed Yeah,
20:53
I'm told it was a taboo No.
21:00
Distribute big commercial films. And they didn't do well. For the ones that Navteq did produce. And release was hard.
21:18
Which was a very nationalistic, which was the cinnamon partition, and the creation of Pakistan, which is obviously took a very, you know, kind of the Pakistan view on things. And it was a film that actually was jamala, Vitaly Levine Tajik, and it's all about partition. And it didn't do well but Navteq did produce that. So I think they decided to go completely the patriotic route and made that film about the sacrifices, you know, that came in jail,
21:53
to Pakistan, and
21:56
we're still in it, which is fine, like, it's fine, but it's just when it becomes so imposing capitalism, nationalism and security of malarkey America,
22:10
obviously, I mean, I mean, we are a national security state. And so obviously, you know, that element is very much there, in whatever output, we produce the 70s were a very different place, he is very different, very different place. And in today's world, I think hyper nationalism, you know, the nexus between various interest groups is so strong, and media is been so co opted, and it's run by to set have very clear, you know, aims on how to destroy corporatization as well as the kind of
23:00
I mean, the nexus between capitalism and
23:13
you shall no longer take dictation from anyone
23:18
and become a time Kesava
23:20
America Muay Thai mom, a charter amazingly demosaic awesome. It was fun. I was I was in Ohio and equality called overland for two years, which was a very intense liberal art college and it's it's a very known college for being really left of center and that co ops and communes, and those are the Mahabharata. Those are made Syracuse mettam. Because I wanted to actually then do some things so I varied degree in communications. But you know, my desire was always to come back to Pakistan as soon as I graduated, I could graduate
24:01
Oh, and what did you feel up to 8889 may have prophesied to top to bottom or at dictatorship may government it was
24:10
the peak of America my job was still there. So when I came back to the very conservative Pakistan, I joined advertising because you know, I could couldn't make movies over here at the time so qui industry wasn't very intrusive to somebody Jabbar searches in a particular area to the strip mall advertising code or you couldn't touch you couldn't I mean that there were times when they made us employ in a girl couldn't even be alone in a room. And I want to pretend like a a bedroom a colony the consecrated. He can even then you know, some people are producing some great stuff, whether it was cinema, or TV, and I guess it was a residue from the 70s. But some of our great TV came mote in that tank. This is a
25:05
beautiful feeling about the camera.
25:07
And about so so much
25:10
can you possibly
25:13
know why it is? So?
25:18
What is that stuff so people who were trained in the 70s, who think in the 70s still lived till that time, so they were still fighting and they were still somehow being subversive whenever they could sneaking things in. But the dominant culture was very conservative. And it was a different thing when I was going growing up.
25:42
Here we got a T shirt.
25:49
And I found it really pressive but then very soon, in 1989 went, and I saw the ushering in of a whole new era. And I kind of grew with the whole new media scene in Pakistan generation
26:07
20 inch
26:08
TV, G technology. It was really exciting because suddenly in front of your eyes, and you're a part of it, and you are active partners, right, right. Like when you're making TV commercials or you're when you're making music videos, you're actually part of the change that is happening to you know, the lot of people coming into the field and suddenly, there was readability and excitement about what you could do and I mean, I was very much part of that whole world. Music Videos started getting made and vital signs came into the scene, I knew them more personally you know, to an SGA node is a marathon new way. So it was a it was a new bucket sign. I mean, that was an air Pakistan. Sir.
27:10
Bullock ronica choked and that was I think the best time to catch up on now. cheesin on private media Navy concerts V or India Exactly. Anneli MTV or Flo Jo videos binotto phoneky channels hrpt. Consume videos up nay up, keep adding video constantly,
27:35
maybe perpetuity manager, I would ask him as another director, Mr. Zack. We were in partnership. And I made three videos, we collaborated on three videos. One was this video for lotto alum. Tom is a time traveler.
28:02
And then there was a video called shaohua which was, again as Anca as our neisseria vasca. So yeah, 18 videos ma sarchi for skiba. For a long time, I didn't do a solo video. But then I wanted to do something that was came from here. And I thought I wanted something exciting, interesting. And something that would define me as a filmmaker is what I'm all about. So my name will keep it not
28:33
for the cabana.
28:36
So Mr. fraud, he was very much shot in Karachi. And basically, I was was this young pop group, very legit and happening. And the original song was called Mr. 10%. And it was basically a parody or a set parody up a satire on a very big politician of the time was Mr. 10%. Yeah, although he wasn't a politician. He was. Right. Yeah. He was the husband of a politician. So Monica kebijakan. At the Barrow, Jacob, the Attorney General shall file they change it to Mr. fro da they change it to 48 of us. And then I'm assuming I came up with the idea, this outlandish character who's really greedy and very new hareesh Pakistan, because Pakistan was also about a lot of new money coming in at the time. You know, remember, this is post the Afghan war also. So you had that old brand of drug smuggler, golden Holden? You know, houses, folded furniture, money, houses,
29:56
military ad or gavel Doing keep
30:02
walking up to a
30:05
big void at the drug money writers huge amount of drug money and then there was a lot of money. There's a lot of corruption that had happened during this time and also during PPP government that came, you know, you remember of course, so skiba just say the song was very hard. So we did it this larger than life. Very colorful, very in your face 1995 It's so basically whiskey casting a yetta K, we wanted somebody really kind of who's got an unforgettable face and presence and somebody who's also not from the PTV world, who could play that role, but also somebody who's hip and fashionable right. So Tarik amin was a bit you know, is still an icon and was very much an icon there 10 biggest uses hairstylist and a stylist who was a school happening, Gordon, you know, this whole new culture of fashion and beauty Japan in a minute, but for those who went to school together, it was actually Austin's idea right because Eric in it. So we got Derek agreed to play the role in Amna Hawk was a top model in our block was also pretty much a DOD kissing cuhk personality. And she did it and then what's what the Carly Kahn was just interested in modeling was cappucci patatas coushatta. So he contacted us and we just put him in you know, in the video, or wherever Bucky to casting key to his male name is get a job below three on Cosmo net Allah or only shoot key and I think that video kind of also became kind of a turning point. So music videos, and also a way of telling a story and for like getting youth on board. Because TV was very much a world in which the youth wasn't involved. It was a word easy for kids, but check cartoon data the oven or to your family's comedic TT, like teenagers and the youth Barbie. Right? It's ugly it's cause
32:20
betina for a long time after bro moving away from us when people will ultimately come to uni video cardiotonic uni video carino Tableau Korean so for five years peep music videos with the craze and after the collaboration music videos, he did several music videos and I hadn't done any and people kept saying you have to Nicaragua Nicaragua a commercial monument. Why because you speed or looser youth Okay, I wanted to do a music video that would define me or mean something to me as a boy shabibi music video La Bella Bella karuma toto mcconachie commodity but it's got to be some kind of an artistic you know, expression. It has got to be done properly. And also I thought okay, the minute she that she can either pass me down token magnet pass it along, then it's got to have some kind of staying power. So we're gonna smash beanie Arata and I wasn't sure and I wanted didn't want to just do anything and maybe I was also a little insecure Okay, shall we naka suku maybe matrox or Nakuru, UK are similar names to thr in June K to sushi top pop type videos create a huge right and it created quite attend to India maybe a year. Maybe Okay, I want to do something really unique otherwise, there's no point to say might also been through like a breakup. In 2000 I was going through a really emotional time. I was in a long term relationship and it kind of fell through to where I was in a kind of a dark spot. So one day when I was getting the sound I was getting I think a Tinder recorded in a studio. So much a company car was panicky and it just sounded so haunting and if not a ensue unique community rather quirky Santa Monica you cannot get scared
34:21
though nikka gig coupe rush.
34:33
I want to meet these guys. And I love this song. So I met these guys and I told them Look, do you mind I'd like to do a music video. So they were like yeah, but we don't have any money. So I said don't worry. She was gonna keep us keep music but it was a very the way it was electrodes and electronics and the way it was just done. I mean just
35:13
You know, the soccer sucks you in and pulls you into this tunnel. And I thought I'd taken a commercial, I contribute a Pepsi commercial in London. And in that was we did this whole, there was a sequence with the camera mounted on a car, and we're going through all these roads. So you get this tunnel field and I had all that footage. And so you know, I said, Okay, I'm going to use that. And then I started thinking that this song, you know, represented, there was such a haunting quality to it. And there was, there was such a emotional pull to it. So I said, Okay, why not do three stories from this voice walking in this corridor, and the voices of conscience of these three stories, the struggle of these three stories, and, and the voices, because a woman singing and she's chained, and she's got these handcuffs. And all those stories, those stories are stories in which they just not free those characters who that situation is one in which there is no getting out of it, they kind of caught up in that. And is there at the end of her handcuff opens, and she shaved her head off. And so when you, when you bring through, you have to change yourself, you have to get rid of baggage you're carrying. And to freedom also means turning yourself around letting go of things. So and in those stories, also, whether there's freedom in those stories or not, I think there is if you see them. And so you know, one story was about about two guys. And obviously you can construe them as two lovers. You know, two guys and outdoor recreation do this or not? Because you know, it's going to be you don't want 2000 right. And, you know, the gay culture in Pakistan is very underground. And it wasn't something that was out in the open. And it was all by you know, like, coated. So I mean, here I was representing put a story that potentially could be read is two guys in a relationship or two guys who have some kind of, you know, something going on. It's not who knows it could be anything.
37:34
And then there was that one thing where he's obviously somebody who uses his partner. Very Tarik is macho guy. And she kind of gets retribution by kind of tying him down. And it becomes an SNL s&m thing. And one of the other things about this wedding night where the bride is waiting, and the groom just can't move forward. He's kind of paralyzed by fear. It could be impotence, it could be physical fear, it could be about what he's getting into, because you know what marriage means. And it's also about the girl I mean, she's playing a role she's waiting. By the end of it, she just kind of also wants to be free. She pulls a necklace off, pulls a lipstick off, and this guy is sweating. And he's kind of in this paralysis and kind of goes to sleep risky wants to escape. So me there were three kind of stories that were happening with this narrator who's obviously talking about the tension struggle. So I don't know Yeti.
38:43
You just say suffer major up dictate a melody madonn so Joby sequence to otherness, you know, that is Amy, you, it is in you, but you don't see it outside, like where or whatever. And then when you see it, like I saw it on in this vision, bay loop schultheiss a video Tokuda benches. And I was like, What is this? Like? It's there's something that I understand. And I know all these people in my family don't understand. And at that time, because it took them so long to ban it.
39:20
When it was very important. It was very coded, right, which is the beauty of it. So I'll tell you something really interesting. Last night, somebody posted a song again, on his story, and it was a Why is it such a guilty sin to still see betina betina? Like a lot of people have told me now like The Rocky Horror Picture Show is the late night midnight show. It's the go to thing for a lot of people of that generation, when they really want to do some of the you know, I don't know, I don't want to go into a certain zone. So yeah, so I think it reached out to a lot of people you know, or at least people that had wanted it to reach out to If I didn't want that song to be commercial yet, obviously not. It wasn't a wedding or a main the song or it wasn't celebrating romance. So I wanted to reach out to certain people. So I felt good about making it cathartic for me because I was in a terrible relationship. I was in a terrible situation post a break up, and I needed to let go of it. I needed to let go of that emotional baggage and I needed to unchained myself and shave my head off. And I think I possibly did shave my head off after that song. So it was kind of cathartic for me personally as well. And it still reached out and I think it's reached out to generations of people in Pakistan and I'm very blessed that people see it and find meaning in it. So I'm very feel like I succeeded in doing something.
41:12
Also, like when it got banned, like did people tell you
41:16
give a z J. Mostafa is me and what did you fear for yourself or people who are no
41:23
good? What's the money made? banning them didn't mean that plainclothes man used to come and pick you up and take you in the middle of the night for something you've posted every day is a very different word world and it was a world kind of chest at the beginning of social media, right? And kind of mind control information control and you know, it was still everything was kind of fluid, you know, did it play on TV it played on PTV? Because I think PTV had like a music show.
41:54
Okay, like PTV, world cable job, private services,
41:57
nobody trained on SDN, and I think by then we had MTV, and in this music eight to encoder, I guess, per se. And I was told it came from the president's house. But at that time Sheriff Saab was the president. I don't know. Yeah, got
42:19
it. Right. And then it came back on once. CIO came on board. Yeah. And then Joe launched his channel called og, which was a youth channel. It was meant to be the cool rebellion new channel, and then they played it on on it all the time. But by then, I've got Roderick Trent of the music industry in Pakistan really faded away. People didn't really visit music channels anymore, so then it's gotten a life online after that. So online I guess people should see it.
42:56
But a queer for lack of a better word. I'll just use the word queer. Yeah, queer representation happy don't know videos may not in our in this one. Jump film up Nikki. I haven't seen the film but Jemaine a trailer they kind of took on a B, which they can their character jokey. I guess, producer hair. Yeah. photographer, who's who's gay. Once the representation there, because it seemed like To me, it taught us a predatory.
43:28
Yeah, yeah, I think it's important to see the film and make your own opinion, you can, by the way, I can send you a link or you can go to feedly.tv. And
43:38
for me,
43:40
all the characters in biology are otherness. Every character is there is no conventional hero here, when perceptions keep changing. For the audience, I like one minute you were totally with this character. And just another point in the film, you think this person's not a very good person, but that's I wanted people that were characters that were kind of multi dimensional characters that were dark. And so your allegiances keep changing with those characters, and also all those characters are because they're not conventional characters. They are belong from the other world. Like in any normal film, all these characters would be the other characters so do the other kinds of film. But so the May the character of an agent who plays his photographer, comm talent scout, comm journalist kind of jack of all trades, and there were characters like that in the industry, to go to people to introduce stars to publicize them. So is the color this larger than life colorful characters a relic from the past and really has no
45:00
Amash as you're saying, like I mean, now I think of Joe or do Baraka journalists take down keep that, like visible does some key donkey
45:10
tack on colo door
45:15
right and they would enter it they would introduce the stars and they would put their pictures up and you know put them in the media they will you know, they will kind of agents, media agents, discoverers, mentors, people, you introduce all these actor actors and actresses, right. So it was kind of a tribute, but the character is a bit predatory. But the character is also a very full blooded and a very empowered character. You're not laughing at the character. You're laughing with the character.
45:56
At that
45:59
movie,
46:03
pitch levar
46:05
laid out, the character calls all the shots. She's the one who's got everyone on his beck and call. He's a mover and a shaker. And so he's a very interesting empowered character, who also happens to be gay. or his being queer in the in the film is not a point of finding him in terms of good or bad for the person. It's just, it's just one of the traits he has and he lifts it up but made money bhaji to see me pasanda hamesha
46:45
buddy over here was the idea.
46:47
But whatever for the audio No,
46:50
no.
46:54
These 20 years in comic comic kind of way. Funny, predatory p angelito. Again, like seeing again, seeing from the songs and teasers. It is like something that demeaning, that is something that is other it is the other but it's like again, it's dabbling into those stereotypes jokey, jokey, cowboy, themed Aubuchon, sorry, casual drama on vintera. Maybe
47:20
if you see it in the mix of all the characters in the film, you will understand why where this character shines out. And, in fact, I think, possibly after mirrors character, this character was the most popular character in the film. Um, he's a character a lot of people really relate it to. And like I said, in the past, queer characters, queer representation was that you're laughing at them at this at their antics, and then making fun of themselves.
47:52
You always took them as like less than people.
47:55
He's an adorable and he's dancing with full abandon to a song that he loves. He's got no apologies. He's not apologetic. Not once is he apologetic? He's out there. He makes no bones about it. He's not hidden. He's empowered. And he is what he is to himself and to the world out there.
48:26
He's not offset by people who are contrasting to him, all the characters are equally shaded and, and out there. As
48:49
when you took the character to know yourself, What What did he say?
48:54
I told him I said, this is a really interesting character. I think in in one in a lot of ways. This character is the hero of the film, because you got it's a very female oriented film. So he said, Yeah, and I said, and this character, likes guys, he lights beautiful. Guys, I said, I do not want to pay him for laughs I do not want him to be caricatured with he already played a kind of a trans character in a film called merit.
49:26
A lot of projects that are character seem
49:28
like look at me because they dress funny in all of that, so I said in this film, you're going to be dressing kind of, you're a very masculine character. In this you're not playing the feminine character. Not that there's anything wrong with it with queer character in Pakistani cinemas, or will be played as the feminine character and thus up for loss. And that's it the street does anybody be playing him as children, you're going to be playing him. Very powerful, and you're going to have the best names in the most intelligent lines in the film, and I really want you to use your voice because your part is fairly strong voice. And you're a person who is very secure and is, it is in what he thinks he has, is losing, because a word is changing. But he was once a very powerful person. So he totally got it. And we rehearsed a couple of times. And he nailed it. You know, I mean, he's just a great actor, actor, and he understood, I said, we're not paying him for laughs. And then I mean, oh, my God, Muslim, and I told Muslim as it was in your character, as an innuendo that your character and this character get involved. And you do have a relationship, and you kind of latch on to this character. Partly because you want to move on on the world, you want to get out of this environment, just like the girl at the beauty parlor, finds shamira your character suffices person, you know, is a stepping stone onto onto bigger and better things. It's also going to mentor your character. In order for these characters to play those roles, separate mentors, they played agents, they got them work. And there was no physical relation involved. I mean, you want to take it to this whole culture, war and debate of the casting couch and about, but I just think it's more than once. And I think it's more textured
51:26
than that, when you bring class in as well. Because,
51:31
yeah, I mean, the ultimate story of bodies a story about class, it is about all these bodies to the female character, and this character, that most in play that really want a no, they can do better for their lives, they can't do it around conventional means they don't have the backgrounds that are gonna get them banking, jobs, oh, the families is only two ways they can make it into this world. It's through fashion, through film, through culture, through sports, those are the avenues that are available to people who want to cross the cultural cross the class barrier. And that's a very important thing. And so people need to understand that that it's been going on for the for the longest time, it's an issue, certainly when there's exploitation involved, you can't just narrow it down and grant it and say, okay, just because one person is more powerful, and the other isn't powerful, you it's called exploitation because power is not just about money. Power is also about beauty and youth. And that is bartered. And there is a very clear conscious element to do that. And when you're in a position of power monetarily, you have a different kind of power. So there is power being buttered and it's not just a very simple equation of Okay, so there's a casting couch and blah blah blah and I just find what's going on in the world today I find it very unwise I find it very one dimensional and I think things need to be looked in a much more holistic way I think certain things still need to be debated and talked about
53:26
I mean, the fair we're talking about there that's another difference like people who are outside outsiders you know on caffeine allow go to strike neoliberal system to address my identities coffee on low capitalized because they have or but he like kind of identities important. Yeah, it's like a different different system or George's system a yellow operator. Thank you journalists. Yeah, yep. Yeah, Ron is a Monica film stars or you go to social climbing Joker Nia sup could exist. The you know,
53:59
just put on as an honor is very much the order of today. And particularly in in our field. It's a you know, in the in showbiz. It happened a lot. I've seen it so much around me. I wanted to bring that aspect into the film as well. But I'm not casting a moral. I'm not making a moral story in the film. It just happens. It's not like, okay, it's good or bad. You can decide whether it's good or bad. Whatever happens in bhaji, you as the audience can decide what's good or bad. But, you know, I pose the same thing to you like you've made a very bold documentary, and it's called showgirls of Pakistan, right. Yeah, and it's about these really, out there. Women who are incredibly complex, they're a representative rep self represent themselves as hyper, sexualized, larger than life. creatures in a very conservative society, that kind of thing. condense them and then kind of Pooja Baker will confess. Right, but it's all what's interesting. It's all about what is sex mean, in our society? What is sex in a society like Pakistan that is so caught up in in a moral discourse about what is right and what is wrong, right. And what we should be output should be sure ourselves as and what is what are we really are. So those kind of things really interested me in budgie and I'm really intrigued by how you got to treat it in your documentary as well. Because there can be a lot of people who on the one side, when your film comes out, there going to be a lot of people who say, are fascist, but then you're going to have a whole bunch of people out there who will or navigate their critique through feminist discourse, many other things like through very, very studied and thought out things. And for me, a lot of those things are very, very problematic because things exist in context. And unfamiliar on the one hand, these women, I see them as fiercely, just like I saw child Kemal my queer character as fiercely independent and fiercely in your face, in a society that has very little tolerance for the other. So they're actually pill heroes and heroines out there. At some level. Yes. You know, you can you can say that there is an element of exploitation free, but it's more than that.
56:35
Yeah. I mean, that's part of the picture. But then also these people have agency the actions that they're taking, they've thought about those actions. I mean, we Yeah, I mean, well, we we judge a lot of people Kcb Lenski vodka. Yeah, feminist discourse in this and that. It's a lot again, like from the outside. I agree. I have I have similar like, I mean, I did the film. The documentary also is like, you know, it will get that game, stop and smell the flowers. I smell the flowers. I think use also smell the flowers.
57:08
jaws is a huge part of this. Because a lot of your twitterati and a lot of your Padilla kalo, who will approach your criticism of your work, he you are showing exploitation women and you are showing women who do mudras and send their bodies and and women should not be reduced to sex objects force. They are not of this world. They really don't even know what world these women come from and what they represent in that world. And what a subversive force they are in that particular word, how they're pushing boundaries in that particular word. And I'll tell you one thing, too, there was a short story I read that one in a ward recently about this girl, it is all about her trying to regain her space or women trying to regain that public space, on roads, and so on. cafes are on the bus. And she's saying that I'm going to go and walk on the streets and I'm like millions of women walk on the roads every day they don't have a choice and ride the buses to you reclaiming Your place is really a class decision. Your mother and father the second set up the return on the maturing a year to 20 driver ah tomorrow correct me as they kick off your class. To me now they can be a part of my daily office when they close class can look to me not the key. So you reclaiming your place. That's your class battle with your own within your own cloud boundaries. How can you speak for women who are actually on the roads and issues of a sort of a reclaiming their space on the roads that are already on the roads. People may come back to our own roads we already chose to use the country roads reclaim that we tried so hard to cut me off cashews AARP class issues. I think people really forget the fundamental issue and behind everything is class. And that is something that we just don't understand. And so when you take class out of the equation, any form of critique for me rings hollow, because then it comes from a very, I find a lot of these critiques come from very privileged intitled points of view, but the cloak as universal that is happening or not. I'm in the world around us today. And I really think that you need one needs to look at things from what points of view and therefore a lot of points of view that are immediately like axed are potent and valid and interesting to me.
59:54
Are you ready? Man, you can see Mira She's got some nice candles behind her. Nobody will come in, watch it. People think she's a laughingstock because of her English for because there's a sex tape out of us which family which lady is going to come and watch the film? I think you just watch. And you know who made budget successful women, middle class women, not the amount can't afford coming to the cinema, the cinema was full of women from the age of 18 to the age of 80. That's what made and women could relate to that and to relate to the character could relate to how women are judged. And and women are put in place and how you can be one thing and you can be another thing as well. And how you can do it so easily. I think we should give people more credit than we do. But I have very little tolerance for people who pretend or who think that they are the one voice for everyone. And they coming from a position of privilege and intelligent
1:01:08
critique was entitled to go home say hello Bahamas patriarchs and how much ibaka Samia is me I'm loving titled a complicated thing. He is a miniature Voltaire. Not everyone, but a lot of them their entitlement comes from okay because we're a little more educated, so we know better and so we can speak to you because we understand you better than you do yourself. So it's like a
1:01:39
class imperialism and obviously hace cemento calm come with a middle class
1:01:48
lower. middle class at Brown, Mr.
1:01:52
Joe foshee back there for her Shiki bot Valley Evie guru named Joe Mario for the date suzzallo those who saw the launch of an app she bought about a slipper jar Salomi for dictatorships get under a right wing say do be some more bandit mode Okay, which is a very avant garde name for her she gave g Islamic perspectives alakija main issue touch Ico projects around ko mudra volume four
1:02:27
make a hockey pass
1:02:30
and raise some money or whiskey Swan boil down beach may sound
1:02:34
Don't be silly.
1:02:36
Don't be silly.
1:02:43
Don't be silly.